It’s a time to reconsider how we’ve been thinking and how we’ve been living so that you can be happier.
Olivia: Good morning, Mr. Marlon Hill. Thank you for joining me this morning. I really, really appreciate it. And before you say anything, let me say a few things about you. I’ve known you for many, many years. From my perspective, an amazing human being, an attorney, a businessman, a community leader, a legacy builder involved in — as modest as he might come across, he has certainly in the local community made a huge, huge difference. And today, this is the last part of the series, recasting relationship between men and women. And so I’ve asked Mr. Marlon Hill to come in and give us again a male perspective. So please go ahead and introduce yourself in the way that you would like to.
Marlon: No, no, my dear, dear friend, I would say, mi querida, thank you for inviting me into your living room conversation and to introduce me to your audience and to the people that follow your work. We’ve known each other for well over 30 years now, at least minimum. And we are still here trying to make our mark, serve our clients, have an impact in our community, and then also have these types of conversations where we’re just trying to support each other and to help each other have healthy relationships and to have a more positive impact on the people that we work with. So I’m so, so happy to be here.
Olivia: Yes. And I want to point out the book that we’re basing our discussion on today is Answers from Within. And just so you know, this is the second edition, and you were very key. You supported me tooth and nail with the first edition, including to the fact that I participated in the Miami Book Fair with the first edition. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Marlon: You’re welcome. You know, we all have a book in us somewhere. And the title of the book is explanatory of that, in that we all have answers from these spiritual bodies that we have been so uniquely curated.
Olivia: Yes, I like that. Uniquely curated spiritual bodies. Absolutely.
So today we’re talking about chapter seven, which is recasting the relationship between men and women. And as you already know, everything that I talk about comes from a spiritual perspective. And I think the point that I want to start with with you is something that I’ve been seeing and hearing a lot about, which is there’s some men that feel that women have advanced to such a degree that they don’t need them. Women don’t need men because they can do their own thing.
Now before you give me your perspective, let me tell you what I believe. I think it’s a great thing if you’re a man and the woman doesn’t just like you because you can take care of her financially. Now there’s a whole lot tied up in that. But you tell me, have you heard that? And what are your thoughts about that particular issue?
We’re going through a cultural evolution and revolution
Marlon: You know, I’ve heard whispers about it, but I don’t know if it’s a tsunami, thunderous noise of that issue being the case. I think we’re going through a cultural evolution and revolution in general — politically, society, culturally — and relationships get thrown into that.
And the thing about it is that culture is a thing that is associated with traditions, values, is connected to race and ethnicity, is connected to different countries that we’re from. And when you talk about the culture of relationships, you can’t speak about it without the culture of where the persons who are involved in those relationships, Olivia, are from, right? Meaning if someone is in a relationship and the woman is from Nigeria and the man is from Brazil, their cultures are going to be merged in a union, right? But they’re not just Nigerian and Brazilian. They’re bringing their traditions, their values, their spirituality, their religion, their race, their background. And all of those things are then clashed.
And then when you put those two people in the context of the culture of America, then there is even more layers to it. So I think that there is a tension, if you want to call it that, between the role of a man, the role of a woman in today’s society. But we have to be careful — what society are we talking about? Are you talking about the Midwest? Or are you talking about the Northeast? Are you talking about South Florida? Or are you talking, because there are different cultures in these regions as well?
Olivia: Right. Well, I like what you said, the evolution revolution, right? All of that going on all at the same time. The world is really in a period of transition. But what I have seen from the female perspective is that women are — wherever they’re from, wherever they’re from — women are sort of saying, you know what, we’ve had enough.
I saw a post recently where the person would say, listen, if I work just like he works, and I must contribute 50% of the finances, why would I as a woman do that, and then have, let’s say, for purposes of discussion, 100% of certain responsibilities?
Marlon: Yeah, and that’s just math, right? That’s just straight up math.
Olivia: So whether they’re Brazilian, or Nigerian, or whatever, women are starting to say, listen, there’s this equation, the burden of being a female, for some, doesn’t make any sense.
Marlon: But I think, Olivia, that is also a product of the fact — if you look in today’s colleges, community colleges, universities, law schools, medical schools, at least the ones that I also traverse as a mentor or as a speaker, I’m seeing more women in those classrooms than men, which would mean that if they continue their matriculation and go out into the workforce, they’re going to be more women than men in certain roles in society, in certain professions. And it’s going to impact the balance of relationships. It is going to have an impact on who can provide, who’s earning more, who’s in leadership roles. And that dynamic is going to impact personal relationships, for sure.
Self-aware, secure in his own being, and humility
Olivia: Oh, without a doubt. The question beneath all of that, because that is absolutely true, women are moving along in the educational chain. The question is, as a man, how do you look at that? Because I believe that part of the challenge is that some people still believe that women are supposed to be relegated to a certain position. And that position, in many cases, is subservient and secondary to male. And of course, this comes out of a biblical tradition for some, or whatever other religious tradition it might come from. In fact, almost every religious tradition has a set that believes that women are to be relegated to a very subservient position.
But that being the case, if you are, let’s say, I call it in the book, a new male, right? How would you look at it in terms of, are you threatened? Should you be threatened? Or is there a way to find peace with this?
Marlon: I think the way to look at it, putting the biblical standards aside, irrespective of the religion and the different sex — I think the perspective that I come at this conversation is, is the male, the man, the person self-aware of his and secure in his being? Because if he’s not, then he is going to be immediately threatened by any level of a more independent partner, spouse, or person that he’s in a relationship with.
So it has to start with the male being centered on having the self-awareness, the confidence and the humility to approach relationships, bringing that self-awareness and confidence and humility to those relationships that will mitigate the pressures of insecurity in interacting with, courting, or having a relationship with a woman that is maybe not as equal in different ways.
Olivia: Well, we’re all equal, but you’re talking about in terms of maybe education and things like that.
Marlon: Correct.
Olivia: I love the words, three wonderful words: self-aware, secure in his own being. And the third one, which I think is key because it speaks to some issues related to the male ego, and that one is humility, right? Because if you’ve been fed for two or three or 4,000 years, you’re in this position because you are superior, so to speak, because somebody said — somebody just made it up. They just said you’re superior, and it’s going to take some humility.
So how do you — I mean, I know you and I know the kind of man that you are, but if you’re speaking to, and I’m going to say this, some of the younger guys don’t feel exactly the same way. I’ve seen many younger guys who think, listen, if my wife wants to X, Y, Z, she wants to be a doctor and I don’t, I can take this role and not feel like my masculinity is threatened by not bringing the most money in the relationship. So I think some of the younger males, some of them feel that way. But some of the older men — and I don’t have ranges for ages — what would you recommend for somebody who finds themselves, because some guys really are trying, they really want to be open?
Marlon: We are a product of the environments that we grew up in. We inherit these things. These are part of our DNA. They get passed on. It becomes part of your cultural existence. And the only way for you to recognize that of what you have inherited is you just have to be more self-aware of who you are and what you are about.
And you believe that being a man means that you should be pounding your chest and you should be the person that is providing, and the person that’s — all of these ascribed roles that we impose on men and women come from the culture that we are growing up in. Right. So I think that we have to set better boundaries for each other in the culture that you want for healthy relationships.
If you walk into it broken, you bring all of that baggage
Marlon: And sometimes you learn these things, Olivia, without even knowing it. And it takes time to unlearn it. And sometimes the unlearning comes from a bad experience. Sometimes the unlearning comes from a broken relationship. Sometimes unlearning comes from an unfortunate instance in our lives for us to recognize that that didn’t work out so well. Why didn’t that work out so well?
And the first question that every male and a woman is supposed to ask is, who am I and what am I doing to heal this and what I’m about? And I think that’s a really important question that we have to ask ourselves, right? And then before you walk into any room — whether it’s a boardroom, whether it’s a courtroom, whether it’s an operating room or whether it’s a bedroom — if you walk into it broken, unhealthy and not self-aware, you are going to bring all of that baggage and bad negative stuff to those rooms.
Olivia: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. Talking about sort of like the subconscious programming — when I got married the first time, when I was very, very young, and I won’t say where my husband is from, even though you probably know, but I will not say where he was from. But we had a particular incident. He, to me, was a decent human being. Obviously, if I didn’t think that I wouldn’t marry him, at the level that I could think at that young age.
But we had this situation where we had one car and I was to go somewhere and return at a certain time. And I recall being late returning. And when I returned — and we weren’t married very long, it hadn’t even been, I don’t even think it was six months, certainly not a year, but maybe six months — I came back and he was mad. And you know what he did? He unbuckled his belt. This guy that I had met in college, and we were both in college, he unbuckled his belt and swashbuckled it out to hit me. And as you know, I’m not a tiny girl. And when he did that, I grabbed it and fought to make sure that I didn’t get hit.
Now, that happened many years ago, but that had to have been coming from a place. I don’t think he even expected that such a thing could come out.
Marlon: Yeah. Where did he learn that?
Olivia: I don’t want to say, but obviously that was deep in there.
Marlon: So this is one of those unfortunate incidents that happens, that could happen to a male where they realize, what am I doing? Why did I do that? And so when we grow up as kids, right, we see things, we hear things, we normalize things, we excuse things, and then we actually repeat some of those behaviors.
And unless you are self-aware or in a process of self-awareness — I can say this, being on the fifth floor now, that I’ve gone through a process of greater self-awareness as to my own, what I have absorbed and what I learned from relationships that I was visible to, right. And I’m more cognizant about what I want to take away from those relationships that I learn and what I don’t. And sometimes I unnaturally exhibit some of those same behaviors and I have to self-check myself. And I’m like, no, Marlon, that’s not good. And if you’re not willing to self-check yourself and to have that type of filter for yourself, you can get into some real tough and bad situations, right.
So right now, I would say this: I’m obviously a Black man, but I’m Jamaican descent. And so you have being Black and then you have being Jamaican are two different kinds of cultures that influence who I am. But I have also traveled, I’ve lived in other countries, I have a multicultural group of friends, and I actively expose myself, Olivia, to relationships and learning that helps me to be those things that I articulated, that help me to be a person who pursues healthy relationships.
Olivia: Exactly. So obviously we can learn by blows, right, because I’ve seen and I have friends, right, men who, let’s say, get divorced, they’re married and they get divorced. And sometimes there’s a lot of confusion, right? Like, why did I end up getting a divorce? Why did she leave me? What was she talking about? And just like you said, it doesn’t have to be a tragedy, it doesn’t have to be some crisis that makes you come to wanting to be self-aware or to understand what life is about in a broader perspective.
But what do you think, other than blows, could help men? I mean, obviously I’m here talking and I’m speaking with you and we’re putting this out there for consideration for people to think, yeah, you know, I really should. But what other than just being a human being and trying to be a decent human being, right, to be fair? I, for example, don’t understand how a man that has a daughter or daughters cannot think, oh my God, I want this place to be better for them when I leave. Like, just as a matter of course, as a human being, why would you not choose? And I know, believe me, I know humans can be very comfortable, right? Like, if I don’t need to move, why am I going to move? Other than crisis, is there anything that you would think that could move the men that feel bitter and angry and resentful and like they’re losing something? Is there anything that you think that would move them to try — that’s what we’re talking — to look at the world from a different perspective?
Marlon: I think at our core, both men and women, we want to be secure and we want to be loved and we want to be appreciated and we want to be celebrated, right? Then where are you going to get this? Where are you going to get this love, this celebration, this being honoured and being and feeling secure, right? And it’s not neatly packaged everywhere, right? It’s just not, right? But ultimately, I think at our core, we all want that.
And so unfortunately, the things that we observe on social media or music videos or just in society in general, they inform — not only inform, but also corrupt or nurture — who we are in our culture, right? So what I would say is that for any young man or any teenager, any young man period, is that you have to seek out the type of security and the love and the appreciation and the celebration that you want. You kind of know when you are in a toxic place, toxic work environment, toxic relationship, toxic community, toxic country. Everyone kind of knows what it’s supposed to look like, but we just kind of tolerate — sometimes we tolerate toxicity.
Olivia: Yeah, yeah.
Women aren’t angels
Marlon: Because it’s just easier to just like not be bothered with it and you just kind of turn a blind eye. But we all know it when we see it. Let’s not even pretend. And in both this toxicity, both males and females. And that’s — you know, I just wrote, women aren’t angels, right?
Olivia: You wrote that where?
Marlon: Right here in my notes.
Olivia: The next thing I was going to say, women aren’t angels. So for some guys, when you write something on social media, they’ll come back and they’ll be very bitter. My other book, For the Love of My Father, which is about growing up without a father — there are father groups out there complaining about things that women do to them. And I can say that, first of all, we have to be careful when we generalize. All women aren’t anything and all men aren’t anything. They’re proportions one way or the other.
But what we’re talking about now is, first of all, the systemic — just like we talk about race, what is systemic? Women can’t do this, and women are not capable of this, or whatever the case might be, or women are supposed to do this. So we’re not saying, for the guys out there, that no, women can be a lot of different things that are very problematic, but just the same as guys, what we’re looking for. And I always say this: what we’re looking for is getting to a place of balance. Where’s the balance? Who am I? Those are the questions that I ask in the book.
Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going? And who’s going with me? That who’s going with me is about the people that mate, that ideal person who recognizes who you are as a divine being and is going to be supporting you on that journey, and who is incapable of saying, you know what, this woman is super talented in whatever way she’s super talented, and there’s no way that I’m going to say that she can’t be that, or that she can’t do that. Because I mean, what kind of friend would you be? How could you know that this person is XYZ and not be a hundred percent saying go, right? Yeah. And go ahead.
Marlon: Yeah. When you think about — you mentioned when folks respond on social media — first of all, I think it’s very dangerous to draw conclusions all the time when someone makes a comment on social media. I viscerally look at certain chats and you go, there’s so much that is being said and not being said in the black hole of a comment trail of various conversations. And it’s unfortunate that we’re losing our humanity in this digital world of artificial intelligence and social media, and we’re losing the authenticity, I believe, of real tactile relationships, right? Social interaction.
Olivia: Yeah.
Marlon: So I think we’re misusing and abusing the digital assets that we have. And many times I will intervene on some conversations that I feel that are approaching a toxic place. I said, guys, listen, I think it’s time that we come off this. And it happens in family chats. It happens in social chats. It happens in professional chats. We may need to come off this chat right now and pick up the phone, or have an in-person meeting, because it’s approaching a place where people hide behind the shadow of the comments to say things that are toxic and hateful. And just not in keeping with someone who is self-aware, secure, humble — because they feel that they can do that in those spaces, and you will see it. I’m seeing it more frequently, and it’s sad.
There’s a line between being an advocate and being toxic
Olivia: Yeah. You’ve mentioned the word humble again, which I think is a key thing, because it seems that women have been able to move along relatively well, so to speak, because the ego issue is secondary. But the male ego functions differently. We are wired differently. But just because you’re humble doesn’t mean that you don’t have feelings and an ego.
Marlon: That is correct.
Olivia: And that’s the key. You can be humble, have feelings, and have an ego. All we’re talking about is checks and balances, right? And for you to feel good about yourself doesn’t mean that you have to be able to keep somebody else down.
Marlon: 100%. And it’s not just male to female. It’s also male to male or female to female. I have learned different ways to channel my ego, right? So especially, let me speak about it in the context of being a lawyer. Someone may say that, well, I need a lawyer who’s a bull in a china shop. And what does that mean? Right. So if I’m not picking over tables, it means that I’m not an effective attorney. If I’m not using expletives, it means that I’m not an effective attorney. So I’m not saying that you can’t be a bull in a china shop and you can’t be an advocate, but there’s a line between being an advocate and being a toxic asshole.
Olivia: To say the least. To say the least.
Marlon: But it’s a re-education, right, because I’ve seen situations — if I go in to a client and I say, well, I think we can really work this out and let’s talk about this, and people will be like, no, I don’t want to talk, let’s fight. And when you translate that to personal relationships, or even relationships that are intimate, there’s a line between standing up for what you believe and what you care about, and then crossing the line into being abusive and being toxic. And I think that we all know what that line is, but we just cross it all the time in our society. And I think it has to do with culture. It has to do with what’s accepted, what’s tolerated. And not only what’s accepted, what’s tolerated — there’s a difference between acceptance and tolerated.
The path to perfection is filled with many steps of imperfections
Olivia: Absolutely there is. Let me ask you a question, ’cause I know you are busy and have other things to do, but I wanted to ask you: if you could put this in a ball, if you had to sort of give some sort of definition about what it means to be a male, a man today, what would be the qualities that you would include? What does it mean? Because it is clearly not just being a provider any longer, right? It is clearly not being the sole decision maker any longer. It is not being the boss of everything and everybody in your household.
So there’s some men out there who thought, well, that’s what I’m supposed to do. In fact, I knew, let’s just say, a lot of guys who, the only thing they needed to do was work and bring the check home. And they were perfectly happy with just that. Now, if you take that away, what is it?
Marlon: I think being a male today means recognizing, like I said earlier, what your physical and your emotional, your mental attributes are. You need to curate it for you as a male. We’re not the same, right? But it’s also very important for you to also recognize, as a male in today’s society, that people depend on you not to cross the line of toxic masculinity, which is a thing, right? And you can see it and hear it, and it can be destructive. Because we have these attributes, right.
And I think that being a male in today’s society also means being present, visible in a manner where people are able to see both your positive attributes and at times your flaws, in a way that is not like, oh man — and to kind of hear a man step up to the plate when you make a mistake, or when you have these imperfections, right. Because the path to perfection is filled with many steps of imperfections. But you can’t be on this path — I would say to the guys that you can’t be on this path of not perfection, but it’s a path, right? You can’t be on this path without recognizing when you have these flaws or you have these missteps, and you can honestly step up. It’s almost like having a confession to yourself.
And then you don’t have to go to confession — being a Catholic, you don’t have to go, hey father, bless me father, because I’ve sinned. You can say, bless me Marlon because I’ve sinned, or I could have done this better, or I should have really listened in that conversation, or when I spoke with Carla, I should have really done this. Or your intuition needs to be sharper on your path to be part of healthy relationships. So it happens at work. It happens in places of worship. It happens in business. It happens in community.
And so if you are going to be a person of impact, a person of value, you first have to recognize your imperfections and be willing, humble and vulnerable to see what you can do better. And it’s not to be perfect. Please don’t mistake me. It’s not to be flawless. Can’t be flawless. But it’s at least being self-aware enough to step up to the plate, to bring your best to your relationships — male, female, male, male, professional, in the community, in a place of worship. Are you bringing your best? How can you bring your best, and go from there?
Olivia: Absolutely. Well said. So I, as a woman, this is what I think. I think that — and I say it all the time, and it’s in the book as well — I can’t love a man enough when he loves me enough to allow me to be who I am. Right? And he doesn’t have to worry where I’m going, what I’m doing. I am free. And the fact that I am free and he respects my right to be free makes me think he’s awesome. I think he’s awesome.
Marlon: However, I believe that that freedom for you to be who you are still comes down to him being present and you being present for him when the time is appropriate. Celia Cruz was a classic example. Celia Cruz, the Latin — she was married to, I forgot what his name is, but he was with her for a long time. And when she—
Olivia: You see that, you see that, you forget his name. What’s his name? You remember? That’s what I’m saying. You forget his name. I can’t believe that.
Marlon: No, but he was just — she used to call him her little cotton ball because he had gray hair. And I know his name, but anyway, everybody knows who it is. And he was with her. She was a star and he was with her forever. But when she got off the stage and they were together, he was the catch me out for her. And that’s the thing that it brings balance also. Cause at the end of the day, you could be famous, you could be a lot of stuff, but when you’re home, it’s just you and that person at the end of the day, and that person is the star of your eyes and vice versa.
And I think that that’s not easy to do, because ego will have you thinking, oh, well, I am X, Y, Z. You really have to manage yourself. You have to self-check. You got to check yourself.
Let’s check our programming
Olivia: Yeah. Check yourself. And so just to wrap it up, one of the key things here that I think is important, and you’ve said it in different ways, is, let’s check our programming. Let’s check where this stuff is coming from. Let’s re-evaluate why. Because even though I sort of mentioned the biblical story and all that kind of stuff as the basis, there are a lot of people who have nothing to do with the Bible, nothing to do with any religious organizations. They just have this concept that’s been handed down.
And where we are is, it’s a time to reconsider how we’ve been thinking and how we’ve been living so that you can be happier. Everybody can be happier. I saw something the other day where one of the countries in Africa, they’re training the men to help at home. Because somebody recognized, hey, listen, the woman can’t do all this by — literally there’s a class for men to learn how to help at home.
Marlon: Yeah. I don’t know if you know this, but do you know that a lot of Jamaican men can cook?
Olivia: Yes, I do know that. Why is that? Why?
Marlon: I don’t know. I’m not saying that it’s an answer from within. I’m just saying that I don’t know. It’s just, it’s part of the culture.
And so how has that fact impacted the dynamics of relationships in Jamaica? Just for example, the fact that they can cook — I’m just saying that the mere fact that that cultural nuance actually exists impacts the dynamics of relationships in Jamaica, because it is one component of a home, not the sole component. And it’s just a curious question as to — I was just thinking about this the other day — why many Jamaican men know how to cook.
Olivia: Do you cook?
Marlon: Yeah.
Olivia: You cook at home?
Marlon: I am the cook.
Olivia: You are the cook. That’s fantastic. I always thought the Jamaican men that I knew that cooked, it always had to do with large meals.
Marlon: No, but if you check it out, if you kind of drill down on who those men are into their homes and relationships, how does that dynamic — because it’s that negotiated understanding in my relationship, is because it’s something I’m good at. Right.
And that’s all that matters. That’s really all that matters. It doesn’t have to be, you cook and I do this.
Marlon: No, it’s like, what am I good at? I’m good at that. I’ll take care of that. I’m not good at design and aesthetics. Right. So she takes care of that. I’m better at finances — not the best, but I’m better. I’m not the best, but I’m better than her. So I try to manage the finances. She’s good at planning events and trips. Not that I can’t do it. She just is better at it. Right. So you go through this salsa dance of knowing, finding out what each other are best at. And you bring that best, try to bring that best every day to support each other. And at the end of the day, you try your best to do it.
Olivia: Right. And it doesn’t affect your masculinity. The fact that you cook does not make you less of a man because you cook, because supposedly it’s what girls do, right?
Marlon: Yeah. And I want it to be her thing. And I don’t want what she cooks.
Olivia: What do you say? Don’t mind him, Carla. Don’t mind him. No, no, don’t listen to him.
You are a gem as always. I really appreciate your time. I really appreciate your insights. I hope that this conversation travels far and wide, and that people out there will just remember — I think the biggest word that you used here today, there are many, but humility is key as a man. It’s okay to be humble and consider. It’s okay to reevaluate yourself. It’s okay to have self-awareness, to make a difference in the world by how you treat other people and to treat women, and to undo the programming, which you don’t even know where it came from, that that is supposed to be X, Y, Z.
So thank you, my friend. Are there any last words that you would like to leave for everybody out there?
Marlon: It’s okay to be imperfectly perfect.
Olivia: Amen. Amen. And hallelujah to that. Thank you. Thank you.
Marlon: You’re welcome. You’re welcome.